Podcasting w/ s9y (was: Podlove integration)

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First of all, this is intended as a discussion/brainstorming thread; that's why it's in General discussions although a certain plugin will likely be mentioned quite a bit. The topic at hand is podcasting support, and it's based on a feature request by Dirk (Lux) to integrate/port the Podlove player. For those who don't know, Podlove is the podcasting solution for Wordpress (although I have heard people complain about that as well).

There is a plugin for podcasting in s9y (additional_plugins), serendipity_event_podcast. I know we're using an outdated version of it (afraid to break it with the update, although I already forgot what the update changes) for S9yCamp, I assume Dirk has used this, too. I guess the first order of business would be to round up if this plugin works, if it needs fixes or how and if it should be improved. Also round up what it doesn't support yet.

I think we should be open to starting a new podcasting plugin from scratch if that's a better MO (if Garvin has “given up” on Podlove integration, it must be quite a hassle). This is also probably a really good way to add a unique selling point to s9y (without it becoming a “podcast CMS”, of course).

I'll add Dirks starting points in the next post.

YL

[yellowled]

Dirks original feature request/ideas

• I only intended to use the player, which also has support for chapter marks.
• It would be nice to have a switch which enables the player instead of the standard html5- or flash-player.
• If you want to offer only one file type - either ogg or mp3 - you need any sort of plugin.
• Safari does not support ogg and Firefox (plus Opera) does not support mp3.
• Old, but still valid: https://dev.opera.com/articles/html5-au ... io-player/
• DeimHart - my former podcast - offered mp3 AND ogg files because of that, but in the end it is unnecessary work.
• The situation may change in 2017 because of the mp3-patents running out.

I think these mainly related to integrating Podlove, though. Might or might not apply to a different solution.

YL

[yellowled]

Notes by me:

It would be nice to have a switch which enables the player instead of the standard html5- or flash-player.

I would actually prefer to not offer a Flash player at all. Flash is dead, HTML5 audio works quite well and there are JS solutions to improve the HTML5 audio element like https://plyr.io – not sure about its podcast-specific feature at the moment, though.

DeimHart - my former podcast - offered mp3 AND ogg files because of that, but in the end it is unnecessary work.

We do the same thing at S9yCamp with a homegrown solution using extended entry properties. It is a hassle, and we also use PodSpot to assist with the feeds somehow.

YL

[Lux]

Notes by me:

Thanks a lot for summing the discussion up.

I would actually prefer to not offer a Flash player at all. Flash is dead, HTML5 audio works quite well and there are JS solutions to improve the HTML5 audio element like https://plyr.io – not sure about its podcast-specific feature at the moment, though.

Agreed!

DeimHart - my former podcast - offered mp3 AND ogg files because of that, but in the end it is unnecessary work.

We do the same thing at S9yCamp with a homegrown solution using extended entry properties. It is a hassle, and we also use PodSpot to assist with the feeds somehow.

We can be quite sure that mp3 is the most widely supported audio file format. It is by far not the best format but (nearly) every player will support it.

To cut a long story short, it would be great to have an audio or media player that plays mp3 from Firefox without the need of any operating system based support of mp3.

Everything else would be on top of that and there are many features I can think of:

• Chapter mark support
• OGG/AAC/FLAC/ALAC/WAV file support
• Video formats
• ...

In the end a podcast is "defined" as feed with an enclosed media file, that is the very basics.

A web based player would be great for visitors of the website.

Cheers

Dirk

[yellowled]

In the end a podcast is "defined" as feed with an enclosed media file, that is the very basics.

That part is already covered pretty well by the easy podcasting plugin, right? It does create the proper feeds including all the right images and whatever iTunes needs to accept the feed etc? It encloses(?) the audio files correctly etc.? The only issue with the plugin is basically the (missing/working) player?

To cut a long story short, it would be great to have an audio or media player that plays mp3 from Firefox without the need of any operating system based support of mp3.

I have not looked at this in quite a while, but the browser support for the <audio> element for MP3 is pretty great. OGG, of course, has license issue in MS + Apple browsers, which do, however, play AAC. And I don't think that this is in any way, shape or form related to the OS, is it?!

I think the general consensus is still to use <audio> this way (which is an example from S9yCamp, where we do this manually using extended entry options and template files:

Code: Select all

<audio controls>
    <source src="/uploads/foo.ogg" type="audio/ogg">
    <source src="/uploads/foo.mp3" type="audio/mpeg">
    <p>Browser does not support the HTML5 audio player, please download the audio file manually.</p>
</audio>

… and then there's of course links to the audio files in the entry text. But that should (according to the Can I use …? info) work in all significant desktop and mobile browsers other than IE8 (which just does not do HTML5 at all) and Opera Mini (which is not really a browser).

I get that Podlove does add a lot of other nifty features like chapter marks, but those are just sugar on top. Does the audio player on S9yCamp not work in Firefox on some OSes? (If so, I'm not aware of that.)

YL

[Lux]

That part is already covered pretty well by the easy podcasting plugin, right? It does create the proper feeds including all the right images and whatever iTunes needs to accept the feed etc? It encloses(?) the audio files correctly etc.? The only issue with the plugin is basically the (missing/working) player?

Yes and no. The feed does not validate, but it works well enough.

I have not looked at this in quite a while, but the browser support for the <audio> element for MP3 is pretty great. OGG, of course, has license issue in MS + Apple browsers, which do, however, play AAC. And I don't think that this is in any way, shape or form related to the OS, is it?!

Unfortunately it is. Firefox is only able to play OGG. MP3 is only supported with the help of the OS.

I think the general consensus is still to use <audio> this way (which is an example from S9yCamp, where we do this manually using extended entry options and template files:

Yes, sure, but I don't want to have to include two files.

Cheers

Dirk

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Firefox is only able to play OGG. MP3 is only supported with the help of the OS.

Judging from the fact that my Firefox on macOS plays MP3 just fine, I'm pretty sure that is not related to Firefox, but to the OS. I assume this happens on Linux systems that do not ship with the MP3 codec because it's not free software? Because in general, the last Firefox that did not play MP3 was FF 21.

Yes, sure, but I don't want to have to include two files.

Sure, I get that, it's a lot of work and uploading.

Podlove does not – as far as I can tell – magically “make the OS play MP3” or something. It uses a Flash player in situations where MP3 is not playable. That means (but I think that's an acceptable trade-off) users with browser/OS combinations that are not able to play MP3 in <audio> get a Flash player. If they don't have Flash, they don't get a web player at all.

Technically (and that's a good thing for us) it's not even podlove that does it, it's http://mediaelementjs.com. Can you test/confirm if that works in a browser that does not usually play MP3 audio? (I don't have a browser/OS where that's the case.) I'm not sure if that's what Garvin gave up on trying to integrate, though.

YL

[Lux]

Judging from the fact that my Firefox on macOS plays MP3 just fine, I'm pretty sure that is not related to Firefox, but to the OS. I assume this happens on Linux systems that do not ship with the MP3 codec because it's not free software? Because in general, the last Firefox that did not play MP3 was FF 21.

Yes, exactly. Firefox does not offer MP3 support and free variants of Linux don't do either.

Technically (and that's a good thing for us) it's not even podlove that does it, it's http://mediaelementjs.com. Can you test/confirm if that works in a browser that does not usually play MP3 audio? (I don't have a browser/OS where that's the case.) I'm not sure if that's what Garvin gave up on trying to integrate, though.

Works for me.

Cheers

Dirk

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Firefox does not offer MP3 support and free variants of Linux don't do either.

I'm pretty sure Firefox does, but it is removed from the packaged Linux version, but that doesn't really matter.

i can no “do” the changes to the podcasting plugin, we're going to need a “real” developer to help with that. I'll also have to look at it first to see what it really does and doesn't do. Not sure how long that might take. Also interested to hear what Garvin did already try to integrate, maybe it was mediaelement.js (that would be bad).

YL

[Lux]

Firefox does not offer MP3 support and free variants of Linux don't do either.

I'm pretty sure Firefox does, but it is removed from the packaged Linux version, but that doesn't really matter.

https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/doc ... ia_formats

Dirk

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Okay:

The MP3 audio format […] is supported in <audio> by Firefox/Firefox for Android/Firefox OS when the operating system provides an MP3 decoder […]

Same, but different. Doesn't matter – if we want a “universal” player that “always” plays MP3 without any other audio format, we need Flash/mediaelement.js. That should be okay since it's a “last resort” solution, but it's not perfect.

We'll have to see if/how that can be integrated in the podcast plugin.

YL

[onli]

Alternative solution: Upload one file, .wav, .mp3, .ogg, it does not matter. Generate a .mp3 and an .ogg file the moment an entry is saved and add that to the audio tag, if an audio file is attached to the entry. Or have a new button where to add the file that does that via JS.

The problem of all this will be to find one developer that does podcasts and is interested in maintaining this. I don't, I'm just not into the field – but I can offer advice on how to do specific things.

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Upload one file, .wav, .mp3, .ogg, it does not matter. Generate a .mp3 and an .ogg fiel the moment an entry is saved and add that to the audio tag, if an audio file is attached to the entry.

While I think that would be awesome if it's possible, I'm not sure other people would like it.

I assume this is a “simple” server-side conversion from one audio format to one or multiple others, i.e. it would not be possible to “tweak” that conversion (think bitrate, volume etc.). A lot of podcast people are quite particular about sound quality, so I'm not sure automagic conversion would be what people want use … then there's ID3-Tags etc., I'd assume most podcasters would want more control over their audio?

I think you are right, we would need a developer who's quite an audiophile and/or podcast expert.

YL

[onli]

i.e. it would not be possible to “tweak” that conversion (think bitrate, volume etc.).

Sure, you can make this configurable in the plugin settings if need be. But otherwise you try to duplicate everything from the given audio file.

A lot of podcast people are quite particular about sound quality,

A transformation coming from a high quality audio file would sound exactly the same. Which is of course not a guarantee that everyone will believe that ;)