[2.0] New default frontend template [dev:Yellowled & Don]

Mark threads with "[2.0]" for discussions about features in the longer-term future, "[1.6]" is for short-term. This is not the place for general discussions or plugin or template requests. Only features that are approved to happen by the core team should be listed here for better structuring.
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Re: [2.0] New default frontend template [dev:Yellowled & Don

Post by Timbalu » Thu Sep 22, 2011 7:30 pm

yellowled wrote:So what do we do about plugins then? At least some plugin would have to emit HTML5 code as well, otherwise the whole thing would be pointless. Do we maintain seperate legacy versions? Or do plugins have the ability to emit HTML4, XHTML and HTML5 code? Wouldn't that be bloat?
The best in migrating to HTML5 is that (x)htlm4 doesnt care about new semantics and HTML5 does not care rendering old styled html, as far as I know. So there is nothing to worry about. Plugins will drop in by time. If'd be nice to have core plugins like staticpages to be in HTML5 semantic, no question. But there is not need to bundle the release dates, if the template is well done earlier. ;-)

Btw, do all other old templates now fall back to 2k11 and bulletproof, or just one of them, or none?
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Re: [2.0] New default frontend template [dev:Yellowled & Don

Post by garvinhicking » Fri Sep 23, 2011 3:29 pm

Hi!
Personally, I see only one reason for that – backwards compatibility. In an ideal scenario (yes, I know we don't have an ideal scenario here), plugin would not provide any CSS styles, those would be covered by templates. Yes, I know it's a pointless discussion.
Indeed. How would a template be able to provide support for all plugins? This is impossible, and you know it too. :-)
Remember back in the day when we didn't have the option to add a user.css at all? How did we even cope with that? :wink: Besides, I'm not stating "only one CSS file", I am stating "not (up to) three CSS files", which is a (small) difference. Let me mull a little over this.
Sure, but once the progress is made of user customization, tacking it back is a step backwards.
So what do we do about plugins then? At least some plugin would have to emit HTML5 code as well, otherwise the whole thing would be pointless. Do we maintain seperate legacy versions? Or do plugins have the ability to emit HTML4, XHTML and HTML5 code? Wouldn't that be bloat?
It depends. We should take on that plugin by plugin, I don't think we can globally state on how to proceed.

I think in most cases we can go a way to make it compliant for XHTML and HTML5.

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Re: [2.0] New default frontend template [dev:Yellowled & Don

Post by yellowled » Sat Sep 24, 2011 11:53 am

Timbalu wrote:The best in migrating to HTML5 is that (x)htlm4 doesnt care about new semantics and HTML5 does not care rendering old styled html, as far as I know. So there is nothing to worry about.
Not necessarily. There are some examples of XHTML/HTML4 code which actually are invalid in HTML5, as I mentioned before. These need to be addressed. There might be more of these in plugins I haven't tested yet.
Timbalu wrote:If'd be nice to have core plugins like staticpages to be in HTML5 semantic, no question.
Static pages are not an issue since the plugin is smartified.
Timbalu wrote:Btw, do all other old templates now fall back to 2k11 and bulletproof, or just one of them, or none?
Right now, 2k11 is not ready to be a fallback theme, i.e. I haven't paid any attention to that at all.

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Re: [2.0] New default frontend template [dev:Yellowled & Don

Post by yellowled » Sat Sep 24, 2011 11:59 am

garvinhicking wrote:How would a template be able to provide support for all plugins? This is impossible, and you know it too. :-)
I wouldn't say it's impossible, but it sure as hell is a lot of work. But it could be done to some extent with solid base styles if (and that is the actual issue) all plugin would use proper HTML markup, i.e. without inline styles, always using the correct elements etc. However, it would mean that said template would have to have a lot of baggage in it's CSS which might not be used, which is the true concern here.
garvinhicking wrote:Sure, but once the progress is made of user customization, tacking it back is a step backwards.
Then it would be a step backwards as well to reduce the number of theme options. :wink:
garvinhicking wrote:I think in most cases we can go a way to make it compliant for XHTML and HTML5.
Yes, see my response to Timbalu. For a lot of plugins, the markup won't be that different – but there are some which might need extra markup for both since one is invalid in the opposite rule set. Maybe we should just smartify those.

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Re: [2.0] New default frontend template [dev:Yellowled & Don

Post by Timbalu » Sat Sep 24, 2011 12:09 pm

yellowled wrote:Not necessarily. There are some examples of XHTML/HTML4 code which actually are invalid in HTML5, as I mentioned before. These need to be addressed. There [...] are some which might need extra markup for both since one is invalid in the opposite rule set. Maybe we should just smartify those.
Give us some examples of what exactly you mean, please.
Is former valid (x)HTML(4) invalid in HTML5 by W3C, except the deprecated elements?
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Re: [2.0] New default frontend template [dev:Yellowled & Don

Post by yellowled » Sat Sep 24, 2011 8:53 pm

Timbalu wrote:Give us some examples of what exactly you mean, please.
http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1 ... irmen.html for example. There's something™ in the URL of the threaded/linear switch for comments, which isn't valid in HTML5.

I also assume that the new semantic elements would not be valid in (X)HTML(4), i.e. if a sidebar plugin would use the details element in an XHTML template.

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Re: [2.0] New default frontend template [dev:Yellowled & Don

Post by Timbalu » Sun Sep 25, 2011 11:01 am

It seems the HTML5 (using experimental feature HTML5 Conformance Checker!) validator is just more picky about not properly decoded & in the URL. Report it as being to strict.

About the second... Where could this happen...? This is one of the reasons why I asked about possible fallback scenarios...
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Re: [2.0] New default frontend template [dev:Yellowled & Don

Post by yellowled » Sun Sep 25, 2011 12:13 pm

Timbalu wrote:About the second... Where could this happen...? This is one of the reasons why I asked about possible fallback scenarios...
Erm, basically in any sidebar plugin? Just take the easiest example: categories. It would be perfectly valid to mark up the categories list in the sidebar in a nav element since it is a major navigation element in a blog. In a blog using an XHTML template, this would be invalid.

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Re: [2.0] New default frontend template [dev:Yellowled & Don

Post by Timbalu » Sun Sep 25, 2011 1:35 pm

Well, erm, yes..., but why should you want to do this, since you know you have to stay backward compatible in fallback casements? And further..., why displace <div> by <nav> elements without any real need, while they are navigation like elements of 2cd or 3rd category?

I understand using HTML5 new semantic elements as a long breath replacement for to much divterie, clearing structural means, but in our case you can just use them there, where you can be sure no other old HTML, requiring valid html, is making use of them.

It is new semantic for structures, nothing strict... and without CSS they are just meaningless elements being somehow relevant in future. ( Please, dont discuss my last point if not totally wrong! ;-) ) In fact this is why we can use things like modernizr to catch up old browsers.
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Re: [2.0] New default frontend template [dev:Yellowled & Don

Post by yellowled » Sun Sep 25, 2011 1:41 pm

Timbalu wrote:Well, erm, yes..., but why should you want to do this, since you know you have to stay backward compatible in fallback casements?
„Hey, why should I bother using h1, h2, h3, h4, h5, h6? I'm just gonna use <div class="headline"></div>!“

Because it is the proper element for the content it is used to mark up. Screen readers, search engines, less cluttered code. I am not going to discuss this any further.

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Re: [2.0] New default frontend template [dev:Yellowled & Don

Post by Don Chambers » Sun Sep 25, 2011 8:50 pm

hey guys, I have been really busy with "life" and have not really had much time to participate in this. Nice job on the demo Yellowled... very clean.

So, first question... when did the version number of the [svn/nightly/whatever this demo is using] change to 1.7 alpha1? Or is 1.7 specifically for this giant step forward?

Second question, and maybe Robert Lender would be the person to ask... isn't there supposed to be a clickable item (ie, a button) for the search field? I thought there was something having to do with accessibility or screen readers?? Unless that is covered by the class "visuallyhidden"??

Im also wondering if the quicksearch box should be identified if there is no button... I know what it is, you know what it is, but look at it from the point of view of someone who has never visited a s9y site...

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Re: [2.0] New default frontend template [dev:Yellowled & Don

Post by yellowled » Mon Sep 26, 2011 9:22 am

Don Chambers wrote:I thought there was something having to do with accessibility or screen readers?? Unless that is covered by the class "visuallyhidden"??
Yes. There is a "send" button in the markup, but it's hidden visually (hence the class name) since it's not needed in visual browsers. It is of course available to screen readers.
Don Chambers wrote:Im also wondering if the quicksearch box should be identified if there is no button...
It has a proper label for screenreaders and a placeholder text which currently only works in modern browsers since it's implemented by the HTML5 placeholder attribute which needs a fallback for older browsers. That should suffice.

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Re: [2.0] New default frontend template [dev:Yellowled & Don

Post by Don Chambers » Tue Sep 27, 2011 11:40 pm

yellowled wrote:It has a proper label for screenreaders and a placeholder text which currently only works in modern browsers since it's implemented by the HTML5 placeholder attribute which needs a fallback for older browsers. That should suffice.
Well, I asked my 13 year old son what that box was likely for, and he said "I have no idea".

So, how about the version you are using... are we just skipping 1.6?

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Re: [2.0] New default frontend template [dev:Yellowled & Don

Post by yellowled » Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:56 am

Don Chambers wrote:Well, I asked my 13 year old son what that box was likely for, and he said "I have no idea".
I guess he would have known if the box had "Search" inside, right? Apparently, you're using a browser incapable of HTML5 placeholders, so it needs a polyfill for that. I'll put that on my todo list.
Don Chambers wrote:So, how about the version you are using... are we just skipping 1.6?
No, I'm just using a recent svn snapshot for the demo blog. In fact, 2k11 will work fine with s9y>=1.6.

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Re: [2.0] New default frontend template [dev:Yellowled & Don

Post by yellowled » Wed Sep 28, 2011 4:50 pm

yellowled wrote:I'll put that on my todo list.
Done, including a no-js fallback.

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