Serendipity Forums

[yellowled]

PS: Isotopp had performance-issues with serendipity.

Yes -- related to the fact that anything, even static pages, is created dynamically, if I remember correctly. (BTW: I also think the static pages plugin could use a serious overhaul. We might even reopen the can of worms of putting the static pages functionality into the core.)

YL

[Don Chambers]

Are we talking about todays s9y or s9y 2.0?

Same question... Did I miss another discussion? Is this being incorporated into the latest nightly, or are we talking about some far future version?

[yellowled]

Did I miss another discussion? Is this being incorporated into the latest nightly, or are we talking about some far future version?

Unfortunately, this discussion orginated from a German thread. Sorry, but this is bound to happen since unfortunately, you seem to be the only non-German developer left. We should probably agree to discuss anything related to the future of S9y in the developement forum in the future to keep you in the loop.

Garvin included jQuery in the latest svn/trunk (remember to re-install you svn client on your new computer, dude), so this is kind of related to upcoming versions. Then again, some of this stuff also refers to future versions.

YL

[garvinhicking]

Hi!

[quoteI really don't see why it is not possible to have, i.e., two possible places to emit JS code - one in the head (for stuff which needs to be placed there), one for anything else at the bottom of the page, right after jquery, and instruct any part of S9y which emits JS (can't be that many so far) to put their JS there? (Apart from the fact that plugins need to be rewritten to work with that method, of course. Yes, I am aware that there might be [good] reasons I, being the frontend-only guy here, simply don't see or understand.)[/quote]

That's the problem, because basically everywhere where HTML can be emitted, Javascript can be emitted. So we can't really control where JS is emitted and where not. and I wouldn't really want to force people putting JS only at specific places - that's against the "flexibility" concern that Serendipity puts quite high. JS actually is allowed everywhrere, why should we as a CMS forbid it suddenly?

I don't think the performance remedies the loss of flexibility...

Which ones? Wordpress has it in the head...

That part was referring to losing inline CSS and JS as far as possible, not where to include external JS files.

Ah, of course okay. I'm all for having as little as possibl einline JS and CSS; wherever we currently do that, if there's a solution to NOT do it adn the solution does not affect flexibility, I'm all for it.

I really don't see why including it in the head should be related to it being our JS library of choice?

Because then, every plugin and template author can ALWAYS use $(...) without needing to fiddle "hey, can I do that, jquery is not even loaded yet".

Are you gonna use the same argument once we get to rewriting the backend template or getting a new default template? Because the old ones work "perfectly fine" as well. (As a matter of fact, they really don't.)

My only argument really is, not to put boundaries on people and make it as forward-compatible as possible; having JS it in the head is very forward compatible, while at the bottom of a page is not (due to scoping).

Also, I hate revinventing a wheel. I don't see much reason to tear down a complete building just to build a new one on top of it that, just because you wanted to change the heating inside the building. We are a small project and need to build on working foundations. Of course we need to be progressive, but not by sacrificing flexibility or breaking existing stuff without any benefit other than that.

Actually I don't think we'll face any problems with that, and I fully believe that we can have progress, but still preserving our strengths that everything can be done with our framework.

About Isotopps performance problems: Those mostly arise to due many people reading his blog "statically", while s9y's core is built for dynamic features. Isotopp really doesn't use much of the dynamic functions, and s9y indeed lacks a good "statification" approach. I did work on some cachesimple plugin enhancements, but without participating developers in this area I don't think there'll be a good solution. I'm not even sure if there is a solution to the problem, because it's inherent to s9y's flexible plugin API approach that would need to be "removed".

Don: Yes, I want jquery as fast as possible because it's prime-time ready. And for large changes in 2.0 this would mean that 2.0 might take a longer time. Ideally I'd like 1.6 to happen a lot sooner, and also give users some feasible new features before 2.0

Regards,
Garvin

[yellowled]

That's the problem, because basically everywhere where HTML can be emitted, Javascript can be emitted. So we can't really control where JS is emitted and where not.

Ah, I think I got it: You mean there's no way to force JS into the footer other than plugin authors sticking to some "code of conduct" to do so, right? I.e. even if we chose to have it the way I proposed, people would still be able to override that? Hmm. Grrr. Okay, that seems to be unresolvable, and it also means it has to be included in the head, at least for the common users. (As long as I can still put it at the bottom via the template ... )

JS actually is allowed everywhrere, why should we as a CMS forbid it suddenly?

Because just because it's technically possible to emit it anywhere doesn't mean it's the best choice. (But, yes, this is getting to the point of bickering, so let's drop it.)

wherever we currently do that, if there's a solution to NOT do it adn the solution does not affect flexibility, I'm all for it.

For example: There's an onclick handler for the trackback url which really doesn't need to be placed inline. (BTW: Once we have jQuery available, we could replace the OS-specific alert box with some sexy overlay ... rrrr! )

Ideally I'd like 1.6 to happen a lot sooner, and also give users some feasible new features before 2.0

We should really have some kind of a "ToDo list" including ideas and features for 1.6/2.0.

YL

[garvinhicking]

Hi!

Ah, I think I got it: You mean there's no way to force JS into the footer other than plugin authors sticking to some "code of conduct" to do so, right? I.e. even if we chose to have it the way I proposed, people would still be able to override that? Hmm. Grrr. Okay, that seems to be unresolvable, and it also means it has to be included in the head, at least for the common users. (As long as I can still put it at the bottom via the template ... )

Hehe, exactly. You can do that via template - of course this would mean that some plugins might not work in your template.

wherever we currently do that, if there's a solution to NOT do it adn the solution does not affect flexibility, I'm all for it.

For example: There's an onclick handler for the trackback url which really doesn't need to be placed inline. (BTW: Once we have jQuery available, we could replace the OS-specific alert box with some sexy overlay ... rrrr! )

Sure, now that we have jquery, that could be doable through jquery easily. I don't see a reason not to change that.

We should really have some kind of a "ToDo list" including ideas and features for 1.6/2.0.

[/quote]

Yeah...i'm not so sure how to maintain that in a good way that also allows discussion. I thought about a new forum with one thread per each feature suggestion, and in the topic have "1.6" or "2.0". My current todo list for next week:

tabbed theme options, schachtelarray
nicht benutzte bilder finden (imageselectorplus)
show_plugin msg wenn plugin nicht installiert
db-upgradefunktion für plugin api

(seitenleisten-quota)
smarty 3 (etwas später)

(quoted from my list, sue me that I'm german )

Regards,
Garfvin

[yellowled]

I thought about a new forum with one thread per each feature suggestion, and in the topic have "1.6" or "2.0". My current todo list for next week:

Sure needs some discipline by the participants to keep it readable but sounds like the easiest and best solution ...

I'd also like to suggest considering an auto-update feature to the backend. Yes, I know, you're not a big fan of it, but I people seem to really want this ...

YL

[garvinhicking]

Hi!

Sure needs some discipline by the participants to keep it readable but sounds like the easiest and best solution ...

I'll create topics for this as we go, for now I've just only created a few stubs here.

I'd also like to suggest considering an auto-update feature to the backend. Yes, I know, you're not a big fan of it, but I people seem to really want this ...

Sure, I also created a thread for it and hope for code contributions.

[kleinerChemiker]

Sure, I also created a thread for it and hope for code contributions.

As long as the forum is not readable, contributing is difficult

[Don Chambers]

I doubt I am the only non-German speaker contributing, but do thank you for your consideration in keeping this discussion English. I did study a bit of German earlier today.. I learned the word Bier! I am now making sure I never forget that word! Or maybe I am in the process of forgetting it.

You guys are moving quickly on this jquery stuff, and that is great. I have not had the opportunity to fully understand your discussion. Is it worth considering an option to enable/disable (default: yes) jquery in the core configuration, then maybe a smarty var like {if not $jquery}load it{/if} for templates?

[garvinhicking]

Hi!

I just changed the permissions on the forum, does it work now? I'm admin, so I don't see that always

And Don, I'm sorry for having kept some low-profile things in german. We'll keep the new thing discussion in english from now on of course!

Regards,
Garvin

[kleinerChemiker]

Hi!

I just changed the permissions on the forum, does it work now? I'm admin, so I don't see that always

Regards,
Garvin

no

[garvinhicking]

Hi kleinerChemiker!

Do you get an error message? What are you trying? Reply to a post, create a new post, ...? You can read and see the forum below "serendipity related", right?

Yellowled and Don can write, so I'm not sure what happens.

Regards,
Garvin

[kleinerChemiker]

Until now I just saw the forum but couldnt open it. Now everything works fine. Thx.